a debate with Richard Dawkins on labelling children as a 'Christian child' etc

source: The Daily Politics via HumanistLife

Professor Richard Dawkins debates (5 minutes) the ideas in his film  (2 minutes) on religious labels with ex-Tory chairman Norman Tebbit and the Communities Secretary John Denham (who calls himself a Secular Humanist - unlike his predecessors Hazel Blears and Ruth Kelly).

Dawkins says that if we, as a society, label a child after the religion of its parents eg a 'Catholic child' if it has Catholic parents, then this is divisive, especially in places like Northern Ireland and the Middle East, where automatically you belong to the same party of thought as your parents. Therefore as a child having been labelled a being 'a Catholic Child' you have an enmity towards other groups eg Protestant children, without really having thought it through, simply because you are a child of those parents.

I think this is a topic of critical thinking skills for children. They should be critically thinking what it means to be a Catholic or a Protestant without taking on board or allowing the labels to distract them from critically thinking about these issues. Dawkins is saying that because society has labeled them a Catholic child, then somehow this faculty to critcally think themselves will somehow be lessened as a result of the labelling. Because children are labelled Catholic or Protestant their critical thinking skills are nullified and so Catholics v Protestants rivalry persists without giving the issues sufficient critical thinking.

John Denham struggles to understand the cause and effect issues. By labelling a child, a Catholic child, what is the effect on a child? He agrees that if Catholic children are brought up with a view that they should have nothing to do, per se, with a Protestant child, then that is indeed a problem with parenting. He is not convinced that the general colloquial use of the language viz this child is a Chatholic child viz. a child of Catholic parents, is an issue or a problem or could become a problem. The language is not a real material problem.

Norman Tebbit says what is wrong with calling a child born in Britain who has African parents, a British child? Dawkins says that this is the opposite of what he is saying. Tebbit says its just bilge (Stupid talk or writing; nonsense) to say there is something wrong in calling a child a Christian Child because he has grown up in Christian-Judeo culture. Tebbit cannot see what damage it does to label a child a Christian Child (just as there is no damage in calling a child a British child). 

By calling a child a British child I wonder if this exacerbates enmity between nations eg with the French?

John Denham says that parents should continue to have the right to bring up children in their own faith. I think he thinks Dawkins has another agenda. If you accept the arguement that you shouldn't label children as 'Christian' then this is a slippery slop argument which would lead  to preventing parents religious belief being taught to children by their parents.

'Please don't label me' campaign

source: New Humanist magazine Jan/Feb 2010

'Please don't label me - let me grow up and choose for myself' campaign sparks charges of 'arrogance' in Belfast

source: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/humanist-poster-stirs-up-religious-storm-14566599.html via facebook

HASSNERS.org comments

The 'Please don't label me - let me grow up and choose for myself' campaign has sparked off some rigourous comments from Christians and Muslims:

Reverend David McIlveen from the Free Presbyterian Church said: “It is none of their business how people bring up their children. It is the height of arrogance that the BHA would even assume to tell people not to instruct their children in the religion.

“I would totally reject the advertisement. It is reprehensible and so typical of the hypocrisy of the British Humanist Association today. They have a defeatist attitude and are just trying to draw attention to themselves. I think it is totally arrogant, presumptuous and sparks of total hypocrisy. I believe this doesn’t deserve a counter campaign. I will be expressing my public position on it in my own church on Sunday. I will be saying that this advert is another attack on the Biblical position of the family and will be totally rejecting it.

“It is a wasted campaign that will have no impact on family life in Northern Ireland.”

Father-of-four Sheikh Anwar Mady from the Belfast Islamic Centre added: “We believe that every child is born as a Muslim. Religion is not given by the family, but it is a natural religion given by our God at birth. The role of the family is to teach the traditions of the faith. But that faith is implanted at birth.”

The BHA said the billboards were being unveiled to coincide with Universal Children's Day on Friday.

Atheist campaigner Richard Dawkins, BHA vice president, said: “Nobody would seriously describe a tiny child as a “Marxist child”, an “anarchist child” or a “post-modernist child”.

“Yet children are routinely labelled with the religion of their parents. We need to encourage people to think carefully before labelling any child too young to know their own opinions and our adverts will help to do that.”

Read more at Belfast Telegraph

What Is So Bad About Religion?

my comments in green
source: http://www.atheistrev.com/2009/11/whats-so-bad-about-religion.html
What's So Bad About Religion? AtheistRevolution says

• Religion is Inherently Divisive
  
• labeling children as belonging to various faith traditions about which they may know little
• see the 'Please don't label me - let me grow up and choose for myself' campaign organised by the British Humanist Association this week
• segregating schools
• faith schools in UK - ACCORD coalition is a group of Secular & Religious groups who are concerned about faith schools in the UK
• taboos about marrying out of the in-group
• [sometimes] dehumanize members of the out-group
• [sometimes] makes the wholesale slaughter of out-group members permissible
• Some Elements of Religious Doctrine are Directly Harmful
  
• "end times" theology (has this spread to the UK?)
• little motivation to improve one's world if one is convinced that the end is coming during one's lifetime. c.f. Humanists believe that this is the only life we have and that their is no other world after we die
• If a politician is convinced that the end of the world is right around the corner, we cannot expect him or her to pursue policies in the long-term interest of our nation and the future generations which will inhabit it.
• We may even be forced to imagine the same politician attempting to hasten the end through deliberately provoking wars, foreign occupations, and the like. I don't know of any politicians that really think this way - but then I don't live in the USA!
• how many other institutions or belief systems could lead one to bring about mass destruction to hasten an afterlife? 
• How many other institutions or belief systems could so effectively motivate the sort of suicide bombings that have become so common in Iraq?  Indeed, what is the psyche of suicide bombers?
• the stubborn insistence that we cling to such antiquated ethical systems hinders progress in a number of important domains (e.g., human rights, gender equality, reproductive rights, slavery, stem cell research, etc.).
• Summary
  
• What is so bad about religion is that
• it divides people and demonizes the out-group to the point where virtually any fate inflicted on them can be justified as divinely sanctioned. 
• What is so bad about religion is that 
• it fosters a primitive form of morality that hinders progress in virtually any domain beneficial to our modern world. 
• What is so bad about religion is that 
• it facilitates the commission of atrocities by good people who are merely pursuing "the divine."

Read further arguments at Atheist Revolution

From buses to billboards: the next stage of the Atheist Bus Campaign is unveiled for Universal Children’s Day

Billboard adverts have gone up today in London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, as the internationally renowned poster campaign which began this year on London buses launches its second phase. So much money was donated towards the campaign after the bus posters had been launched that the campaign organisers announced that any further money raised would be put towards new adverts later in the year.

‘One of the issues raised again and again by donors to the campaign was the issue of children having the freedom to grow up and decide for themselves what they believe, and that we should not label children with any ideology,’ said Ariane Sherine, original creator of the Atheist Bus Campaign. ‘I hope this poster campaign will encourage the government, media and general public to see children as individuals, free to make their own choices, and accord them the liberty and respect they deserve.’

The posters display some of the labels routinely applied to children that imply beliefs such as ‘Catholic’, ‘Protestant’, ‘Muslim’, ‘Hindu’ or ‘Sikh’ mixed up together with labels that people would never apply to young children such as ‘Marxist’, ‘Anarchist’, ‘Socialist’, ‘Libertarian’ or ‘Humanist’. In front of the shadowy labels are happy children, with the slogan, ‘Please don’t label me. Let me grow up and choose for myself’ in the now world-famous font of the Atheist Bus Campaign. The billboards are being unveiled to coincide with 20 November, Universal Children’s Day, which is the United Nations ‘day of worldwide fraternity and understanding between children’.

‘We urgently need to raise consciousnesses on this issue,’ said Richard Dawkins, Vice President of the BHA, President of RDFRS, and co-sponsor of the campaign. ‘Nobody would seriously describe a tiny child as a “Marxist child” or an “Anarchist child” or a “Post-modernist child”. Yet children are routinely labelled with the religion of their parents. We need to encourage people to think carefully before labelling any child too young to know their own opinions and our adverts will help to do that.’

Andrew Copson, BHA Director of Education, said, ‘The labelling of children becomes even worse when it is implemented as a matter of public policy. One of the issues we hope to highlight with these adverts is the continuing and increasing segregation of children according to parental religion in state-funded “faith schools.” Social cohesion and preparation for life in a diverse society is best achieved in inclusive community schools, where children from different backgrounds learn with and from each other without being divided by labels that they are not old enough to have chosen for themselves.’

The billboards will remain up for two weeks. The BHA has launched a fundraising campaign to coincide with the unveiling of the billboards which will raise money for campaigns to phase out state funded 'faith schools’.

Notes

Images of the billboards and FAQs

Billboard locations:

London: Old Street roundabout

Cardiff: 42 Merthyr Road

Edinburgh: Portobello Road, Piershill

Belfast: 74-76 Great Victoria Street / Bruce Street

The Atheist Bus Campaign’s appeal for donations to fund the bus adverts was launched in October 2008, aiming to raise just £5,500. Within four days it had raised £100,000 in individual donations from the general public and went on to raise over £153,523, smashing its original target by 2791%

Spin-offs from the campaign have included bus and other advertising campaigns organised by humanist organisations all over the world and a book edited by Ariane Sherine, ‘The Atheist’s Guide to Christmas’, the proceeds of which are being donated to Terrence Higgins Trust.

In 2009 Universal Children’s Day marks the twentieth anniversary of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and the sixtieth anniversary of the UN Declaration of the Rights of the Child.

Articles of the Convention on the Rights of the Child include: 

• Article 2, where the child is ‘protected against all forms of discrimination or punishment on the basis of the status, activities, expressed opinions, or beliefs of the child's parents, legal guardians, or family members’; 
• Article 13 which provides that the child should ‘have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds’; 
• Article 14 which guarantees that states will ‘respect the right of the child to freedom of thought, conscience and religion.’

children should have the freedom to grow up and decide for themselves what they believe.

Atheist groups unveil latest advertising campaign

LONDON - The consortium of atheist groups behind January's London bus campaign with the tagline "There's probably No God," unveiled today a billboard campaign to coincide with the UN's Universal Children's Day

Billboard adverts have gone up in London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast.

The ad campaign coincides with the launch of a fundraising campaign to lobby for the phasing out of state-funded 'faith schools'.

Ariane Sherine, original creator of the Atheist Bus Campaign, said children should have the freedom to grow up and decide for themselves what they believe.

‘I hope this poster campaign will encourage the government, media and general public to see children as individuals, free to make their own choices, and accord them the liberty and respect they deserve.'

The posters display some of the labels routinely applied to children that imply beliefs such as ‘Catholic', ‘Protestant', ‘Muslim', ‘Hindu' or ‘Sikh' mixed up together with labels that people would never apply to young children such as ‘Marxist', ‘Anarchist', ‘Socialist', ‘Libertarian' or ‘Humanist'.

In front of the shadowy labels are happy children, with the slogan, ‘Please don't label me. Let me grow up and choose for myself'.

Richard Dawkins, vice president of the British Humanist Association HA and co-sponsor of the campaign, said.: ‘Nobody would seriously describe a tiny child as a "Marxist child" or an "Anarchist child" or a "Post-modernist child". Yet children are routinely labelled with the religion of their parents. We need to encourage people to think carefully before labelling any child too young to know their own opinions and our adverts will help to do that.'