Jerry Coyne - Why Science and Religion shouldn't cohabit

source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/dorsethumanists/permalink/10151767186228943/

HASSNERS.org highlights

HASSNERS.org comments

Today at the SW SACRE conference I was asked by a Chair of a SACRE (she has Bahá'í Faith and was a former biology teacher) whether I thought Science and Religion are compatible, so this video linked by John Davison is timely (actually I wish I'd seen it LAST night, as I would have answered her: No! rather than 'sometimes'!)

A brilliant talk by Jerry Coyne. I'd recommend you watch (make notes!) on the whole hour long video. My highlights...

13min 50s: question to US public "if science found a fact that contradicted the tenets of your faith, what would you do? 64% of Americans would reject the fact in favour of their faith!"

18min: the more who believe in god, the less who believe in Darwin

21min 40s Frans de Waal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans_de_Waal moral sentiments can be seen in chimpanzees and other animals eg sympathy, empathy, reciprocity. Dogs follow social rules. thats why we like them so much [4] http://partners.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20010114mag-atheism.html

I am deeply confused by Free Will (I hope Johno Pearce? can enlighten me in his talk for Dorset Humanists)

22mins: "Free Will is an Illusion: we do NOT have free will - we do NOT have free choices, they are made by our unconscious often well before we think we made those decisions, this is deeply threatening to religious people because free will is a deep part of many religions; you have to freely accept [must have Free Will] Jesus before you are going to heaven, and if you can't do that, religion has no meaning whatsoever'

24min: Stephen weinberg '"The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it seems pointless' ie no deity gives a point to the universe.

26min: Pollution of science and Naturalism by superstition eg Francis Collins says fine tuning, morality is evidence for god,

29min: why science works. Science provides ways so that you don't fool yourself (Richard Feynmann). With Religion you do fool youself.

40min: The Nicene creed - a metaphor?

46min: if science disproves something in the Bible, the theologican says it's a metaphor.

50min: Adam and Eve story refuted.

God is Hate!

God is Hate!

Posted: 29 Oct 2011 09:21 AM PDT

Atheism UK said via email on 31/10/11

'I came across this image amongst a slew of “normal” rolling adverts on a big screen in Cardiif City centre this week. It is, perhaps, fitting that it stands beside a pile of rubbish because that is precisely what it is; a meaningless phrase which represents not any aspect of reality, but a fantasy of its authors.

Just stating something doesn’t give it any validity. One could equally say, “God is hunger”, “God is ignorance” or “God is hate”.

We may agree that love can a positive, emotion compared to hate, but you don’t need God or religion to understand or feel love.

It is curious why the verse John 4:8,

“[6-8] The well that Jacob had dug was still there, and Jesus sat down beside it because he was tired from traveling. It was noon, and after Jesus’ disciples had gone into town to buy some food, a Samaritan woman came to draw water from the well. Jesus asked her, “Would you please give me a drink of water?” (Contemporary English Version)

was referenced as there doesn’t seem to be anything about love within it. Perhaps, they are hoping that people will read on. I wonder if anyone bothers, apart from atheists like myself who have immunity to the mythology and ignorance of religion?

Rather than the quote referenced how about Hosea 13:16,

“Samaria will be punished for turning against me.
It will be destroyed in war–
children will be beaten against rocks,
and pregnant women will be ripped open.” (Contemporary English Version)

?

Charming! This is one amongst many quotes that can be found in the bible that highlights the hatred of “God”, or rather of the men who wrote the bible and claimed divine knowledge without evidence or justification.'

The Big Question - Is the Bible still relevant?

source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0114q4t/The_Big_Questions_Series_4_Episode_15/ (7 days left to view this 1 hour debate, from 8 May 2011) - Series 4, Episode 15.

Big Question MessageBoard

To commemorate the 400th anniversary of the publication of the King James Bible, the programme debates just one topic: is the Bible still relevant? Contributing their views from the panel are: the Right Reverend Michael Nazir Ali, the former Bishop of Rochester; the scientist and atheist campaigner, Professor Richard Dawkins; Rabbi Laura Janner-Klausner from the North Western Reform Synagogue; and the Bible scholar Dr Francesca Stavrakopoulou, who presented the BBC Two series, The Bible's Buried Secrets.

My highly selective summary of the debate:-

Nicky Campbell (NC) (Presenter): Is anything in the bible historical fact?
Francesca Stavrakopoulou (FS), Bible Scholar, Exeter University: Very little probably is fact in the bible. Ancient writers had a different understanding of what a fact or what fiction was, compared to us today. It wasn't written to be a factual account of the past. As a historian of the bible I think there was very little that was factual. (2:25) David and Moses were not factual but most scholars would agree that Jesus existed. A sophisticated collection (not a hodgepodge) of ancient literature, creative writers, brilliant stuff. How do you know when to read something as history or something as not history? (7:15)

Rabbi Laura Janner-Klausner (LJK) (North Western Reform Synagogue)

NC: There are Greek myths. They don't need to be true to derive truths from them.
Richard Dawkins (RD): Richard Dawkins (Evolutionary Biologist & Humanist / Atheist): The world is full of creation myths and myths of all kinds. Many of these myths are very beautiful. Everybody knows something about the Greek and Valhalla myths and Aboriginal myths -  they are interesting. I don't think there are many truths in any of the myths. (9:20) But the Bible myths today are given a privileged position over other myths (which are not very much use anyway). If you looking for god, why not Zeus or Jupiter or Thor? Sophisticated theologians and historians don't think the bible is true but 45% of USA people literally believe in Adam and Eve and that world is only 6000 years old.

RD: About the New Testament, why didn't god just forgive mankinds sins, why did god have to sacrifice his son? Isn't that the most disgusting idea you've ever heard? The criterion we choose to pick the good stories in the bible are that we are all decent human beings. We reject those aspects of the bible which are horrible

We cherry-pick the bible! "Why bother with the bible? How do you know what are the good ideas and the bad ideas in the Bible? So don't live by the book. Why not bypass the bible altogether as a source of moral authority (34:47) - you can get it from Dickens, Milton, Shakespeare, anybody in literature!, moral philosophers, science today etc etc; We should not just be discussing the bible, we should be discussing whether all literature is relevant to decide what todays morals should be. Those that wrote the bible, were ignorant (lacking knowledge- knowledge that was plain wrong, not pejorative), desert dwelling scribes (48:00) Nothing special about the bible - could listen to Confuscious or modern philosophers or scientists.

Francesca Stavrakopoulou (Theology & Religion Senior Lecturer): You don't need a book of any description to help you have some moral awareness (44:28); Most of the monotheistic religions advocate treat people fairly and decently - but that's what humanists would say - you don't need religion here.

Guy Otten (Greater Manchester Humanists) recommends AC Grayling - The Good Book as todays Humanist / Secular updated version of the bible. Morals have NOT developed from the bible, it comes from our evolutionary background and we've been developing it. (39:25) The Human Rights Convention developed in the last 60 years is a much more advanced moral document than anything you find in the bible.

Right Reverend Michael Nazir Ali, the former Bishop of Rochester, the bible is the moral guide that has led to, god implanted the moral sense in every human.

Rt Rev. Stephen Lowe (Anglican Bishop): Look at the bible a fresh today in 2011 not as it was written 2011 years ago.

Ricky Gervais - comic atheist - does the Bible

Thursday, 10 April 2008

The day Ricky Gervais became an atheist

American men's magazine Best Life has a short piece by comedian Ricky Gervais on how he became an atheist.

After saying how, at the age of 9, he was a massive fan of Jesus – "More than pop stars. More than footballers. More than God" – Gervais describes the day his 19-year-old brother, Bob, walked in just as he was drawing Jesus on the cross as part of his RE homework:

"There I was, happily drawing my hero when my big brother Bob asked, 'Why do you believe in God?' Just a simple question. But my mum panicked. 'Bob,' she said, in a tone that I knew meant 'shut up.' Why was that a bad thing to ask? If there was a God and my faith was strong, it didn’t matter what people said. Oh…hang on. There is no God. He knows it, and she knows it deep down. It was as simple as that. I started thinking about it and asking more questions, and within an hour, I was an atheist."

So, a fairly rapid conversion then. And Gervais goes on to describe the "gifts" that opened up to him as a result of his "newfound atheism":

"The gifts of truth, science, nature. The real beauty of this world. Not a world by design, but one by chance. I learned of evolution—a theory so simple and obvious that only England’s greatest genius could have come up with it. Evolution of plants, animals, and us—with imagination, free will, love, and humor. I no longer needed a reason for my existence, just a reason to live. And imagination, free will, love, humor, fun, music, sports, beer, and pizza are all good enough reasons for living. But living an honest life—for that you need the truth. That’s the other thing I learned that day, that the truth, however shocking or uncomfortable, in the end leads to liberation and dignity."

Nice one, Ricky. And thanks for giving me a great excuse to put up a clip of the hilarious Genesis scene from stand-up show Animals:

Posted by Paul Sims at Thursday, April 10, 2008

Skeptics Annotated Bible

reposted from: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ via http://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?docid=dc2d8vd8_107gngrv5 (John Catt's http://humgroups.org.uk)

Highlights
Absurdity
Injustice
Cruelty and Violence
Intolerance
Contradictions
Interpretation
Science and History
Family Values
Women
Good Stuff
Prophecy
Sex
Language
Homosexuality

Genesis 1 (source)	The Garden of Eden
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.	(1:1-2:3) "In the beginning" The first of two contradictory creation accounts. Compare with Genesis 2:4-25 in which the order of events is entirely different. The two creations When was the universe created? The Gap Theory In the beginning... (1:1-2:3) The Genesis 1 account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis 1:1, the earth and "heaven" are created together "in the beginning," whereas according to current estimates, the earth and universe are about 4.6 and 13.7 billion years old, respectively. In Genesis, the earth is created (1:1) before light (1:3), sun and stars (1:16), birds and whales (1:21) before reptiles and insects (1:24), and flowering plants (1:11) before any animals (1:20). The true order of events in each case was just the opposite. (1:3-5, 14-19) "Let there be light" God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? (1:6-8) The Firmament (Heaven) God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. (1:11-13) "Let the earth bring forth grass" Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). Notice, though, that God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants, rather than creating them directly. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. Were plants created before or after humans? Does the Bible teach evolution? (1:14) "Let them be for signs" God placed the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used "for signs". This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read "the signs" in the Zodiac to predict what will happen on Earth. Does the bible condemn astrology? What the Bible says about astrology (1:16) "God made the two great lights." "The greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light; it only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? (1:16) "He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the sun and stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. When were the stars made? (1:17) "And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." Then why is only a tiny fraction of stars visible from earth? Under the best conditions, no more than a few thousand stars are visible with the unaided eye, yet there are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy and a hundred billion or so galaxies. Were they all created "to give light upon the earth"? (1:20-21) "Let the waters bring forth ... fowl." From what were the fowls created? (1:24) "Let the earth bring forth the living creature" Does the Bible teach evolution? (1:25) "And God made the beast of the earth" Were humans created before the other animals? "The beast of the earth" (1:26) "Let us make man in our own image" How many gods are there? "Let them have dominion ... over all the earth" (1:27) "Male and female created he them" When was Adam created? When was Eve created? Is God both male and female? The Pre-Adamites (1:28) "Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over ... every living thing that moveth upon the earth." [more] What the Bible says about birth control Is childbearing sinful? (1:29) "I have given you every herb ... and every tree ... for meat." May Adam eat from any tree? What should we eat? Is it okay to smoke marijuana? (1:30) "To every beast ... I have given every green herb for meat" (1:31) "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is about 13.7 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed.
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
1:7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.